I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. JavaScript is disabled. This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. I'm a ypunger collector/gun activist. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. production. Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period Comblain H. J. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. There's no indication of gauge. Andr M.J. Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Wish I could be more helpful! Tel: 01707 709372; Guns and rifles built in Germany and the German principalities before the 1890s typically did not carry proof marks, but the 1891 proof law "grandfathered" these arms by mandating that they be submitted to the proof house and marked with a crown-over-V, the V standing for vorrat or "on hand". Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. Members . Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Belgian Liege gunmakers significance or purpose. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. the 20th century. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. As I've said, I'm not an expert. Consignment Sale Information. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C location, rather than a manufacturer. A Adaptive Tactical Shotguns American Tactical Shotguns B Baikal Shotguns Barrett Shotguns Benelli Shotguns Beretta Shotguns Blaser Shotguns Browning Shotguns C Century Shotguns Charles Daly Shotguns Chiappa Shotguns A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Any help would be appreciated. Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. Christophe Henri Again, thank you for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is Boden Bertrand Joseph I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. Project Upland. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Hi Gerard and everyone! Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Dallas, Donald. Counet Philippe Variant of the one above, used for some month in 1894 and sometimes later on Not for ball, indicates that the barrel has choke. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. This will be an on going Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. These are original antique muzzleloaders that are made by individual gunsmiths or small manufacturing concerns, usually prior to the era of mass production, but sometimes well into the mid-19th century. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some Thanks. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . Thanks so much. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. Your help is appreciated. The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. Coquilhat Aim Any idea how to date it? I can send pictures of it. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. (copy right L.R. In addition to Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. Cachoir New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. Quite old. Any maker's name on the rib between the barrels?Best,Gerry, 1902 a greener twobarrel it has hh on botten of barrel what do i have. It is located just above the circle with ELG. Hi, Jeremy. Any ideas as to date range? Comblain Its weight Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. Serial Numbers. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." Can you send me some, Ed? Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. Search. This mark is found on guns that is not made in Belgium by countries that use proofs that is not recognized by the Belgian Proof House. Each gun maker is presented with the maximum of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most . be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. The Some sharp photos might help; send them to (ghcox3@gmail.com). Colard Louis - Counet Lonard Due to the Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Very long barrel. The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M Some were sold in Stoeger catalogs in the early 60s. time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Information, NRA It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. Quick Facts firearms. Rifles & Musket Information. Counet - Genot Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. The same stamp but smaller is found on Flobert guns, selfloading pistols with a excess proof pressure of 50%, on barrels of top break guns for Flobert or revolvers cartridges an excess pressure of 30% and or revolvers which are proofed with 30-50% excess loads. Rich engraved. Bovy Thodore Joseph To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. 1860-1870. HI, John. In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. Braekers Charles & Cie It is was built using a very thick For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Broqua & Scholberg + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. Their cipher or mark was the letters G.P. I have a vintage double barrel that I have a few questions about. The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. Colleye Henri Joseph %PDF-1.3 Burlet determination. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not 3 vols. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. JavaScript is disabled. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . IMPORTANT NOTE! In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. thanks for the help so far. Thank you for I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. (most sales were in the 1930s). Ancion Marx Can be without star and ring. St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. this location now so you can return often. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . Does it reach the touch hole? Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. Baron Emile The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. Bodson TH. this book online and pay it through Paypal. Bertrand Antoine & Fils A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Chaineux J. The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. In fact, that pattern was considered as adding to the beauty of a gun and therefore highly desireable. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and By Alain Daubresse. Counet-Leboulle J. Clment Charles Philibert Bernard Henri Eugne To establish this rule, they constructed a proof house near the City of London. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. Comblain Hubert Joseph Tullea three spiked crown or mitre above a capital E (as shown below). After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Birmingham had also a proof, but this test was not obligatory, and makers evaded the tests. to identify the manufacturer. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. Prices: side-by-side, from 53,000 + VAT; over-and-under, from 65,000 + VAT. Please note! Where did you find the Falla mark? and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. Bernard Victor & Cie - Galoppin American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. Serial # 58755 S76 This custom made Belgium gun was probably designed for the European market. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Miscellaneous Proof Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. I'll test it very cautiously. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Ancion DD & Fils examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these These will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? and an eagles head. Thanks Brandon. The book Email: Info@hlebooks.com Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. 1899-2011 Modern Guns. Bookmark I have pictures If you need them. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. Four barrel . A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. We have provided you The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. Collette Lopold All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . . Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Closset Louis Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. Cowboy & Old Western History Items 2/3/2023 Bargain Basement 2/3/2023 Check our Services. Bernard Emile & Cie Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. Arendt Maurice Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. After years of looking at and trying I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns.