+++++++++++++++++. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. Probably originated with Calvinists during the Reformation Wars or their descendants the Puritans; as an answer to the question Am I One of The Elect? Using Im Rich! @ dee: Hey, my Lutheran background is a lot of things, but Calvinist it aint! Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. A A Arminianism refers to a belief structure ascribed to Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a Dutch Christian theologian who studied the tenants of Calvinism. Pardon me if I show my bias toward breastfeeding and please indulge me a bit. Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. External Leaders When members begin to question the fidelity of their pastor's teaching, they rarely (regrettably) go to their pastor. I can't get thereeither on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried). God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways. Not that Im really doing this all that whole-heartedly. I had planned to say the same thing to him. Again, this idea that humans had no will to act is not something that the WCF, RC Sproul, or any Calvinist I know believes. Yet not one of them will read Is God to Blame by Greg Boyd, let alone sit and discuss the verses in question (Exploring what Gods sovereignity really means, based on scripture). It is nice to meet someone who remembers.If you dont mind me prying, where did you grow up? But I do believe in TULIP and the majority of the WCF- what label should I use to communicate that when people are interested? That is, the non-Calvinist can say whatever he or she wants and the Calvinist just has to take it. 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. Wow! Apollos! discussions. But that isnt enough. Calvinism did not start with John Calvin. When you get called a heretic,"barely a Christian" or whatever, think of it this way. I dont know why I didnt think of this earlier. Olson has occasionally been accused of heresy for not adheringto the current YRR view of doctrine. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. There are a lot of avenues going on here. But never, ever did it raise anything except a good discussion. Calvinism is merely the attempt by one man to interpret the Bible; there are scores of others, men and women, who have attempted the same. I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian.. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. I am a non-Calvinist (not quite an Arminian either) who lives and moves and has my being amongst Calvinists, the overwhelmingly dominant brand in my neck of the woods. What is the positional difference of man before God between a little TOTAL depravity and total total depravity? Does that make me not a Calvinist? (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) Regarding the idea of God controlling every molecule, Sproul (and the Westminster Confession of Faith) asserts that God is in control of everything, but never in such a way to do violence to the will of man or make God responsible for evil. They are letting someone else handle driving. So Sad. I have found peace in accepting that I will not fully understand in this life, and maybe not even in the life to come. What content does your faith have? A very messy prospect, to say the least, and it hadnt worked in centuries past. Wade is never too tired to defend what he believes, and he will not eschew the oppositions venue. Would you drink a glass of water with just a little flesh eating bacteria in it? I grew out of it, something I hope the YRR does. And I get better at flying (so to speak). Of course Calvinism is not the only theological construct that has been used to hurt people. I am currently reading Roger Olson's book, Against Calvinism. (I mean, Star Trek?). *Thank you* for this post, as well as for your use of the term non-Calvinist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. But I could not have thrown it were it not for my moment-by-moment dependence on the being and power of God. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. Can God repair things? #7 Scott J, Jan 10, 2006 Oy. This is what many people come away with when they read Piper, and the Pyromaniac blog, and encounter the Jarred Wilsons, Doug Wilsons, and others of the blogging world. When I correct someone, mostly my goal is to show them that the ones who taught them this horrible doctrine are the outsiders with fringe beliefs, not them. What you describe is nothing like what I believe nor anyone I know believes. In time, becoming a stronger branch. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. I cant get there either on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried)., I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? Sovereign Grace Ministries Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? To insist on it is to cling to an inadequate, incorrect understanding of God, IMO. And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed, every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Glad to have someone who gets my background! /r/Christianity is a subreddit to discuss Christianity and aspects of Christian life. Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. After all, you could be wrong. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. I am spelling out what is being taught, at least to my untrained ear, under the name of Calvinism, in hopes that we can all learn to: a)recognize where we are coming from, and b) respect those with very different takes on these things as brothers, sisters, and seekers. Do not expect to win the argument, no matter how logical and "winsome" you are. There is much we have in common, but I honestly have to say that I have encountered more of a critical attitude toward other denominations while I was in the neo-Calvinist camp. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. Does not compute. I hold you in high esteem. They never want to explain just what this glory is, as you said. He wept at sin and cruelty and brutality.He died for sin, he doesnt stage it.Why would He plan the same terrible things that He died for? And heres 2400+ pages of PROOF! And would appeal to organization freaks with OCD who crave To Be Absolutely Right? It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. If Im wrong, I apologize. Many of us come from heavy Calvinist backgrounds, have studied the confessions and the institutes, and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. And its a big enough issue that RC Sproul re-badges it to Radical Corruption. I dont like people spewing proof texts, but let me give yo a verse anyway: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.. Here is a link to a chart comparing Calvinism to Arminianism. I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. Everything just fell apart. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? Purity of Ideology, Dee. I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. Or if they reject it because they think it teaches that God loves to abuse his children. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. I have come to understand that my experience in some great non-Calvinist churches is not the norm. Thinks youre the bees knees. This is the place where all the puzzle pieces do not fit for me, and I am OK with that. Nicholas what a great link. Like one Cal would say, Cals do not believe Z, stop saying Cals believe in Z, but then five posts later, another Cal would sit there in the same thread and defend Z, say Cals were right and proper to believe in Z, and Z has lots of Scriptural support. I know this sounds like a broad brush, but I think people need to know this dirty little secret. Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. John Piper truly had no idea why his tweet from Job 1 caused an uproar. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. Its all up to God. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. I understand its maddening to shoot at a moving target. Thats why. and can find no basis for a distinction between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. This is fine too, and actually more pleasant for everyone. I used try but I have given up. Concerning double predestination: If by it you mean that God makes people sin so that he can judge them and send them to hell no, I dont think the Bible says that. In practice its a bit like saying Catholicism in the latter youve got everything from evangelical Catholics through liberation theologians and the very conservative ones who want to go back to Latin masses and pre-Vatican II. held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. Athanasian nope, that seems tove been written by someone (probably not Athanasius, by all accounts) barking up entirely the wrong end of the stick. For example onannihilationismhe commented that some evangelical theologians have "resurrected the old polemical labels of heresy and aberrational teaching" in order to marginalize other evangelicals holding the view (The mosaic of Christian belief, 2002). Some Calvinists who want to make a distinction between hyper calvinism and proper Calvinism will gravitate to these equivocations in an effort to convince youand I suspect themselvesthat God in their construct is not some despotic puppet master who controls all things including abuse, rape, etc (e.g. This, of course, is totally irrelevant. His attitude impresses me. I had no reason not to believe. Keep in mind, until the last 7 years, I had no reason to view Calvinism with any sort of negativity. There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. For my part, I DO understand why people look at Calvinism and reject it. We know that some of you disagree with us. It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). It was you! I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. Why is Calvin even part of the discussion, period? It is the ideas that underlie what Calvinism discusses that are problematic for all humans. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. Paige Patterson 18. When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. I am much more hyper in my comments than they are. These include Park Street Church in Boston with Paul Toms as pastor; Chapel Hill Bible Church in North Carolina with Jim Abrahamson as pastor and Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas with Pete Briscoe as pastor. Nope. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. My dad was Russian Orthodox, primarily because it was a cultural expectation for him. Theyre like rival sects of Muslims in Iraq & Syria. Im not always that good at explaining things well. Some of the things he did/wrote/said kind of raise alarms, if Im honest the whole Servetus Thing, for instance, doesnt make anybody look good however you spin it. You should see another Christian blog where the wars are almost as bad (hatred-wise) as the different Muslim sects slaughtering each other in Iraq & Syria. We really, really need it. With a long-dead Calvin as Cult Leader? I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. 1) That article. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. Hunt, Finney, Hyles, and Billy Graham would number in the non (anti)-calvinists that I personally have less respect for. His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. 1) That article. I would love to sit down with you over coffee and discuss reformed theology, because it sounds like we could do it without emotion and angst, and I think I could learn a lot. In some respects we all do that. The bullying was behind the scenes. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. How can man decry evil and embrace good when neither one really matters or means anything to God? One section was exploring happiness. This has something that has really been important when writing, commenting, and moderating on ACFJ. Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? As for the double predestination, I wouldnt agree with either position youve posted but that is no surprise, as Im a non Calvinist. Entropy setting in over time? 14 William Lane Craig I DO struggle that when a woman is raped, that God chose not to prevent it. Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. Besides the fact that I believe that the Bible says that God is all-knowing and all-powerful (and I hope to get into details about that later), the idea that suffering is *meaningless* is worse to me than the idea of God, as you put it well, [orchestrating] even the specific tragedies of life. If its within Gods orchestration, I can be assured that there is a reason for them. System- & neat-little-box-free. That is biblical. Considering the amount of people we are seeing who have had these experiences, I wish the accusations about misrepresenting the Reformed/Calvin/Tulip systems would take a back seat. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. 5:11-14 (cf. I might also note that TWC is not the same as Calvinism. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? Lin wrote: I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. She called me and we had a good talk. As I have stated, I do try to be sensitive and let people vent. These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. I have a very low tolerance for that kind of thing. You are not a Cavinista. This is not the way toward peace. There is nothing wrong with being emotional about it, either, except that we need to not use it to demean the other. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans all have doctrines which are neither, and Anglicans typically hold doctrines similar to one of those three, rejecting the reformed framework which is central to both Arminianism and Calvinism. But Jesus and he should know praised his Father for hiding these things from the wise and learned, revealing them instead to little weans. Which is fine! Recently, I had a Calvinist who knowns me say that i was not a Christian by very fact that I write this blog and call out some of the people that he admires. Oy. Weeps with you. I cant make it all fit so I go with what I honestly believe and hold loosely to the conclusions. This was no emotional, short term thing. Remember, Calvinism is merely the invoking of associative meaning, not real meaning. Theology - Roger Olson, Jack Cottrell (restorationist inerrantist), Thomas Oden, Ergun Caner, Paige Patterson, Michael Brown Also, anything written by Satan Notthemama1984 Puritan Board Post-Graduate Nov 12, 2010 #7 I personally have no respect for Geisler. 21st-century Calvinist and Reformed theologians Eastern Orthodox [ edit] 12th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 13th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 14th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 15th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 16th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians 17th-century Eastern Orthodox theologians It means that someone thinks someone else is presenting an incorrect opinion/idea and will present disagreement in as many ways as he/she can think will work. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. If Calvinism sounds so much like Arminianism, why is there such a problem? This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. Some Calvinists will argue that being Non-Cal always means automatically being a universalist, denying the Scriptures, believing in a works-based salvation, or not believing in Gods sovereignty, etc. But if you think about it, thats not all that surprising. They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. In what way it is wrong needs to be determined. Canada ON - Waterloo. For a village to be wiped out? Neither is TULIP. I have not had that experience. Change), You are commenting using your Twitter account. This is a huge difference from the Calvinistas who dont. Might we call what youre describing love? held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. I have been given books and literature from Im not saying thats being done intentionally- that is why Im seeking to clarify what I (and others with similar beliefs) believe. Just want you to know that Im keeping your son-in-law in my prayers. my reformed acquaintances pushing the calvinist pillars. (It had seemed strange to pay for a gift. . It feels good to be in a healthy spiritual state again. Instead, you consider this shorthand for biblical Christianity. http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/09/taking-calvinism-too-far-rc-sproul-jrs-evil-creating-deity/, Having left my few years of Calvinism through a Lutheran rescue, I just pictured a bunch of Germans and Norwegians riding in on cavalry horses, flying a Lutheran rose and singing A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, @ Hester: Make that Ein Feste Burg is Unser Gott, Hester! Re Calvinism, part of the problem (and approach) is defining just what Calvinism is. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. Quote - "A pure heart won't get us out of conflict and controversy. Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? 9. There is one more point that I do want to make, though. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. There are definitely some clearly Calvinist ideas that I disagree with. They equate Calvinism as spiritually intellectual stuff and non-Calvinist theology as far below reformed doctrine. b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. People, including you, got upset from Calvinists just stating their views. Im sorry about the experiences youve had with Calvinists. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. He "knew" that only the infants of covenantal believers go to heaven. Of course, this is an attempt of a finite mind to describe the infinite, so it cant be perfectly accurate. Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. Never, once, have I ever entertained such a suggestions about my Calvinist brothers and sisters. The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. So done with neat little systems with all the ends tucked in If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. By accurate, I mean that its the definition of the term when it came into being. He/She needs to be able to clearly understand why it is damaging and to openly explain how he/she does not hold to those ideas, which have been so awful as to cause some among us to become suicidal. So how does it work that God is in control of every molecule without circumventing the free will of man? I could not get past the point of believing that God had ordained my abuse until I discovered there was another way of putting the jigsaw together. I can see why many walk away . Thats not counting all the wives of elders, deacons, and Christian men in general. All the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, major liturgical Protestant groups like Lutheran and Anglican, and the Arminian/Methodist/Holiness line, which would include many Charismatics, Non-denominational, etc. Is proud of you. If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? Along with the traditional stuff, I have the definitive collectio of Star Trek ornaments including the Borg Cube which says (when turned on) We are the Borg. For example, we should never, ever turn our backs on child sex abuse because the pastor in the church where it happened is one of our good buddies. Off topic but growing up and even today my enduring friendships are with folks who had at least one immigrant parent.. one each from Greece, Italy and Albania. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. Today I am addressing a post to non-Calvinists and will do the same for Calvinists on Monday. I disagree on some points with everyone I respect. There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. It is how Calvinism discusses those underlying ideas that causes existential damage and thus, pain. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! Fine- no one is calling him out. I will say they are much more composed personalities. We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. The writers did claim to believe much the same, though, even that church and state should work together with the church ruling and the state enforcing church rule. Many problems in churches and society should transcend doctrinal biases. We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. The guy wearing glasses in the video gave an interesting explanation, though he chose to use the Fall in the Garden, rather than a more contemporary example. Ultimately I think TULIP is the science behind how salvation operates, and knowing that should breed thankfulness and humility in me. I am sure that I didn't pray correctly. You have nothing to do with it. Anyway, as far as it depends on me, I really do want to be peaceful and avoid even the appearance of allegiance to anyone other than Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior. How wonderful to remember those days! On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. There is a new evangelism taking place. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. His notable works, such as The Courage to Be and the three-volume Systematic Theology, has inspired intellectual thinkers and commoners alike. We are glad that you do. I was challenged to think, to serve, to teach and to grow. (though in truth, I probably still get to read most of your comments from my lurking place, even though I rarely get to comment anymore). Although I had been churched, I had rarely opened my Bible. When we say, during the inevitable discussion of Gods sovereignty with a traumatized person, that even wrongs are ordained because God ordains all, we cause existential damage.